Saturday, March 21, 2020
373: Shakespeare’s Coriolanus and the Homoerotic
Ugh. This is one of my best days of this course, and I hate that I have to deliver it to you like this. But here it is!
26 comments:
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This is Matthew Morelli. First of all that's a really cool backyard. Leaving a comment between the intense relationship between Corialnus and Aufidius. The line "he's a lion that I'm proud to hunt," tells us that his greatest enemy is still a person that he respects. Reminds me of the way Trump respects and admires dictators.
ReplyDeleteBy the way what's in the mug? I'm enjoying your relaxed nature of this forum. Many thanks!
It’s tea in the mug! That is a good point about Trump: like Coriolanus the people who should be his enemies are the people he most admires. Also like Coriolanus he cannot help but be himself — neither man has any ability to hide who they really are.
DeleteI think you probably already considered this since you have already watched She Ra on Netflix but there are plenty of parallels between Coriolanus/Aufidius and Adora/Catra. While it's kind of different since they used to be friends and Coriolanus and Aufidius never were, I think it still works. Catra is a lot like Coriolanus. Both of them hate people and their most intense relationship is with their enemy. Both have a complicated relationship with their mother figures. Adora and Aufidius are well liked by the people they serve and have friends. She feels strongly toward Catra but as much as Catra feels for her because Adora is able to move on better. Similar to how Aufidius doesn't feel as strongly toward Coriolanus but it is still strong. Both couples are their worst enemies because they understand each other the best. The difference is, with Catra and Adora, they aren't just queer-coded, they are queer. The showrunner confirmed it herself. Coriolanus and Aufidius have subtext but it is not quite as explicit as in She Ra - unless Shakespeare decides to peek out of his grave and announce otherwise in which case, I would welcome it. Personally I love reading a little too deeply and finding queer subtext in media so I loved this particular class quite a lot! P.S. Almost cried at the X Men clip. Those hannukah candles get me every time.
ReplyDelete- Deborah Majowka
UGH! I am ashamed to say that I had NOT thought of that, mostly because I have not taught Coriolanus since getting into how awesome She-Ra is — YOUR POINT IS EXCELLENT AND WILL BE PART OF ALL FUTURE CLASSES.
DeleteThe question of queer subtext is so complex — even if a creator denies the queerness they may be denying it for marketing reasons to avoid the show getting in trouble. Korra for example went as close to queer as they could get but denied us that final kiss literally two seconds before we would have gotten in. Wall-E’s creator said the movie had nothing to do with global warming but if he DID say that red states would have boycotted the thing. So I think She-Ra and Coriolanus are more similar in terms of giving space to audience members who are sensitive to these things — they both seem pretty explicitly queer to me but I also get why someone might not see it that way. I read 100 page book of essays about Coriolanus and NO ONE MENTIONED HOW GAY THEY ARE AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS NUTZ (tho the book was from the early 80s so maybe that accounts for it).
Since you are interested let me point you to my very favorite Hollywood queer coding — SOME LIKE IT HOT with Marlyn Monroe. The final like of the film is coded to be THE MOST SUPPORTIVE OF GAY PEOPLE and its 1950!
I've seen that movie and it's my favorite classic Hollywood film! There is a lot of queerness in that movie and I love it! The final line is amazing! The concept of denying subtext for marketing is definitely a complicated one because sometimes chemistry between actors of the same sex happens by accident and then fans say it queerbaiting which sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Really fascinating stuff. In another class, we read Bisclavret which is extremely gay and I pointed out that the two men were totally in love and the professor responded and I quote, "yes there is something quite brotherly about the love they share" and I didn't say anything, but in my head I thought, "that... is absolutely NOT what I was going for but ok".
DeleteAnother random parallel between Catra and Coriolanus. They both were banished by their "states", the Fright Zone and Rome.
-Deborah Majowka
UGH THIS IS SO GOOD! You are brilliant! I love it!
DeleteIt’s funny how queer coding works tho. In high school i watched interview with a vampire and thought it was this sexy movie WITHOUT noticing it was queer and when i watched it again a few years ago IT IS THE QUEEREST MOVIE I HAVE EVER SEEN
One more thing I forgot. Catra and Coriolanus are both names that start with C and Adora and Aufidius are both names that start with A. That literally has no bearing or meaning on anything, just thought that was cool.
ReplyDelete- Deborah Majowka
Ha!
DeleteI could literally write a second paper about them if I had the time. There are so many parallels. Other than the above-mentioned banishment, both Catra and Coriolanus go to a wasteland and take over a gang/army and then return to their original homes to try to take over due to a grudge. The difference is how that turns out in the end.
Delete-Deborah Majowka
You know what? Screw it, I'm'a write this paper anyway for the hec of it.
Delete-Deborah Majowka
ALL I can think about C-Dawg and Aufi is this spongebob meme where he's looking at patrick and saying "is he....you know?" and he kind of has his wrist in a sassy position, which is essentially asking if he's gay. It's a wild thing to think about, but the whole time I couldn't get that meme out of my head.
ReplyDeleteI wish I had more to say but I'm just going through a really rough patch right now and my head isn't in this whole online thing at ALL. But I'm here, and I'm trying.
No worries! I am just glad you are up to making the comment you did! THIS STORM WILL PASS
Deleteits ironic that you compare them as lovers... its just super funny to me but so true when you really think of it. Thanks for the little action of the lego movie. Batman really hurts his feelings LOL! but i understand their relationship better now.
ReplyDeleteHonestly Professor I'm just not focused! I'm trying so hard to stay alert! Srry im late tho
It’s ok to be a little unfocused! Things are crazy right now! Just showing up here and commenting — I AM IMPRESSED
DeleteThe juxtaposition between Coriolanus and Aufidius, Batman and the joker, and Professor X and magneto’s relationship is that they share an unhealthy bond with their adversary. This sense of self that the protagonists and antagonists find in each other are perpetuated in their stories. In contrast to Batman/Jokers story and Professor X/Magento narrative, is the untimely downfall of Coriolanus. After watching the defeat of Coriolanus, I felt a little betrayed by Shakespeare’s choice to kill the protagonist. Killing off Coriolanus after Shakespeare humanized him to the audience took away from the usual plot story which made me feel unsatisfied with his ending. In the stories of Batman/joker and ProfessorX/Magneto, the good guys always win. It’s part of the reason why I continue to watch these movies.
ReplyDeleteAs a society we often feel betrayed by anything less than a happy ending because we think the point of stories is to make us feel better. But there may be other things art can do besides make you happy (art might be like going to the dentist which is good for you but never fun) and there are also other kinds of happiness (events can be unhappy for characters, but way the author told the story and the words he used in the telling might make you feel good)
DeleteHere’s the thing, I don’t mind a tragic ending. And I enjoy watching people kill each other, in movies, if it’s just. It was expected for Coriolanus to die, I just think he had an unfair battle. Audifius and his goons took him out in the least honorable way, especially since Audifius and Coriolanus had this agreement that only they would be able to kill each other. Although, in Coriolanus’ prime days he would’ve disemboweled everyone. Whereas, in Macbeth, he went out in a ruthless fervor, ready to slay anyone on the battlefield. Until he realized that macduff was his executioner, he yielded himself to macduff, but he was given a fair fight unlike Coriolanus.
DeleteThis is a very good point — Coriolanus was humiliated but Macbeth got the kind of death he would have wanted, in battle.
DeleteHi! I like how Martius comparing Aufidius to a lion and Aufidius comparing Martius to a snake reveals their unmatched feelings for each other, but also foreshadows Coriolanus’s death at the end. It also made me reflect on your comment from one of the other videos (or from our physical class? I can’t remember, what month is it? How long has it been?) about how “It’s just a mirror”- that the relationships we have with people are just mirrors of ourselves. Coriolanus sees Aufidius as the noble lion when in fact Coriolanus is the noble one even when he dishonors Rome by pledging to fight against it. Whereas Aufidius is the snake, who despite being on the same side as Coriolanus, chooses to dishonorably slaughter him. That’s one of the reasons I love Coriolanus’s character through and through, he displays a great amount of conviction in his character and defends his city even though he hates the people. In modern context I think of my own disgust of everyday people, their lack of intellectual knowledge, common sense, higher education, or breeding (in terms of etiquette- like in public spaces, etc). HOWEVER(Please don’t @ me), I understand that I’m projecting my own privilege when doing that. Unlike Coriolanus, I get that not everyone has the time to study in depth, form their own philosophy, or even choose what they want to do with their lives or who they get to be. And despite my own subjective irritation I would still want to do everything in my power to serve people in my own way, like Coriolanus chooses to do as a soldier. Coriolanus is absolutely true and consistent about who he is, and despite his personal disgust of common people he protects their feeble democracy(Feeble bc they’re obviously not using it responsibly- hence their fickleness and wavering convictions). RE-BATMAN CLIP: I felt like the first clip of ‘Unwoke Batman’ resembled Aufidius because of his denial of how much Joker meant to him. When Batman says “I don’t need you, I don’t need anyone, you mean nothing to me” I felt that it must’ve hurt him to try THAT hard to push Joker away(like psychotically piercing an emotional knife into Joker’s chest while also hurting himself bc of his incapability to love). I think Aufidius’s greatest downfall was his inability to get past his jealousy of Coriolanus. Although he and his men technically slaughter Coriolanus- what the audience doesn’t explicitly see is that Coriolanus is the bigger man. Better to die a man than live like a coward.
ReplyDeleteThese are fantastic observations — I am really impressed by your ability to take the metaphor seriously.
DeleteFirstly, I'd like to say that the first exchange between Batman and the Joker was surprisingly intense. I feel like coriolanus has only felt and learned what a sense of love is from his mother. This all relates to the theme we saw in Macbeth where they experience love through war; Macbeth being more rooted in sexual and physical love and Coriolanus in more of a family and partnership love. Volumnia raised him to be this ironclad soldier. To raise a soldier, I'm sure she used this cold form of love in where victory in sparring is the only way to win her affection and approval. I feel like this translates into the relationship between Coriolanus and Aufidius in which every battle they fight, Coriolanus is eager to gain the approval of Aufidius, similar to him as a young boy with his mother. Approval, not speaking in sense of Coriolanus being necessarily liked by Aufidius but Aufidius seeing Coriolanus as a worthy opponent.Coriolanus doesn't look for the approval of the citizens because he doesn't think of them as worthy but he views Aufidius as highly as he views himself. Maybe this is Coriolanus' love language? He's not interested in a soft, romantic sense of love because he doesn't know how to be soft. Which brings me to question how the union with his wife actually became.
ReplyDeleteLooking for approval from your enemy is a great point — partly because the enemy, as a super-soldier, is the ONLY PERSON QUALIFIED to give approval — no one else understands him!
DeleteAnd to continue off of my previous comment, Many people say that we look for our parents in our partners. It's the first sense of love we experience as humans. The way we love and the love we look for essentially is taught from watching our parents interact with us and each other. Since we can assume his dad was never in the picture, the love Coriolanus received from his mom and how he went about receiving it is his blueprint for how he displays love as an adult.
ReplyDeleteI like this psychological perspective! This is a good analysis! Thanks so much for commenting!
DeleteThis makes me think of the erotic as a form of pleasure, while there are many, sex usually tops the thought on the topic.
ReplyDeleteWhen professional soldiers like Caius Marcius and Aufidious derive most, if not all of their pleasure on the battle field, in violence and bloodshed (at the time mostly stabbing) it's really not a big step for that pleasure to transfer to the slightly more erotic, I think.
It seems like Caius Marcius exercises his manhood for pleasure in sparring with his enemies above anywhere else. So it make sense for a certain sexual tension to develop between him and his enemies of equal stature.
I probably wouldn't have thought much about it before but your analysis makes total sense so thanks for the fresh perspective.
This is a great observation! Thanks! And thanks for watching these vidoes!
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